Extreme Dissonance and You

[Chris]

How do you respond to extreme dissonance when listening to music? Are all unpleasant sounds obnoxious and intolerable for you to listen to or do you love it when your ears feel oppressed by barrages of discords? Should all extreme dissonance in music have a creative or functional purpose in order for it to constitute music at all?

Usually, I find extreme dissonance fascinating and enjoyable if it has a purpose and demonstrates creativity. Whether this purpose is purely musical, as in creating so called 'art music', or has a functional goal, e.g. the score for a film, doesn't matter so much for me. All dissonance and no constrast can be pretty sickening, though. I'd much rather see dissonance in conjunction with playfulness, e.g. Shostakovich's 4th Symphony (1st Movement), than non-stop sheer brutal aggression. After all, all consonant music employed degrees of dissonance for contrast and tension, so all dissonance and no consonance could probably be regarded as plain, albeit vulgar, too.

[Pandemonium]

I'm personally not a dissonance man, but it can be incredibly effective if used in moderation and in the right places. Mozart and Beethoven can be very dissonant at times, I think there is a particularly clashing bit in the development section of the first movement of Beethoven's Symphony No.3, it sounds almost Stravinsky-esque. However I do have a particular fondness for the Rite of Spring, I guess it could be because Fantasia was one of the many routes that took me to classical music. Although the dissonance is quite extreme it works and is not jst dissonance for dissonance's sake like I find some modern pieces. I have never really got used to serialism, I may be possibly persuaded if I found a particular piece like the Rite of Spring but nothing so far has pushed my buttons.

[Chris]

I find some serialistic music, e.g. Berg's Wozzeck or Schoenberg's Pierrot Lunaire, fascinating or effective, though don't find the idea of tone rows especially purposeful itself. To me, the idea itself just represents mathematically-influenced experimentation, and it's the manipulation and harmonisation of them that interests me. All in all, though, I think serialism is a bit of a musical dead-end, even if it makes composing by numbers a little easier. :p

[TheShroud13]

Pierrot Lunaire is, in my opinion, absolute garbage. I can't listen to the piece without laughing. I understand it's about a clown so there is some aspect of humour there, but for the most part - and this applies to a lot of the modern stuff, it just sounds too cheesy for me to respect it as a musical direction. I enjoy dissonance here and there, but more often than it actually affects me for what the composer seems to be reaching for in their music, it pushes me more to laughter than anything else.

I do like the Rite of Spring and Wozzeck and some Bartok/Webern, but for the most part extreme dissonance, especially when used as the main organizing principle for a piece of work, just doesn't work for me.

[Rain]

OOhhh...yea. I love Shostakovich's use of dissonance in his 4th Symphony (especially the crazy "big" running string part) although in some of his works, he has a tendency to go overboard. I am growing to love dissonance...perhaps this is the beginning of the end as I am one who likes to explore. I am afraid that my love of dissonance is going to take away from my love of consonance though I am also aware of the fact that each has its specific impactual niche in the musical idiom. Other than that, I am growing to enjoy it very much. I like to hear creative new sounds, bold implementations of chords, notes and tones that simply cannot be come across in the world of consonance. It can be a really beautiful thing to hear a few chords clash and to note the response it creates from within.

[eriol33]

I find some serialistic music, e.g. Berg's Wozzeck or Schoenberg's Pierrot Lunaire, fascinating or effective, though don't find the idea of tone rows especially purposeful itself. To me, the idea itself just represents mathematically-influenced experimentation, and it's the manipulation and harmonisation of them that interests me. All in all, though, I think serialism is a bit of a musical dead-end, even if it makes composing by numbers a little easier. :p
ZOMG, seriously chris, you find that crab fascinating? I couldnt stand any of schoenbergs' pieces. they are just too... dissonance.

and
Pierrot Lunaire is, in my opinion, absolute garbage

...
btw where is the smilies button here??

[Chris]

ZOMG, seriously chris, you find that crab fascinating? I couldnt stand any of schoenbergs' pieces. they are just too... dissonance.

Fascinating is the word I chose. It's certainly that, though it's not something I'd choose to listen to either. :)

By crab, do you mean crap? :p

[eriol33]

Fascinating is the word I chose. It's certainly that, though it's not something I'd choose to listen to either. :)

By crab, do you mean crap? :p
yeah, crap, talk about pun. :D

[Totz]

like to hear creative new sounds, bold implementations of chords, notes and tones that simply cannot be come across in the world of consonance. It can be a really beautiful thing to hear a few chords clash and to note the response it creates from within.

Exactly! I remember listening to Aharon's "Frog's Theme" arrangement for the CTPC, and it had some awesome 6 ou 7 note chords, kinda Rach-ish. There was one in particular that we both had enjoyed a lot. :)

Anyway, I hate dissonance that it's not there just for the sake of being dissonant. I, much like Rain, enjoy when it's used creatively.

[insertnamehere]

excuse my musical ignorance but im not quite sure what Dissonance means is it like this vid i think his improv has alot of dissonance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf2accwGEaU

[TheShroud13]

As a side note, it's usually not the dissonance that I have the problem with, it's the sheer near randomness of atonality that generally bothers me.

[Biffleguzz]

I think it says a lot about extreme dissonance when its poster child, Sergei Prokofiev (the youth), ended up believing that there was a limit to how far dissonance could be taken and regarded the style of Schoenberg as a failure. While Prokofiev is certainly not the authoritative figure on dissonance, I believe his opinion is shared by many.

My favorite use of dissonance is when it is used gently. Dissonance is inherently jarring and doesn't need to be accompanied by tremendous volumes (although there are exceptions, such as Beethoven's 9th). The light dissonances found in Prokofiev's 1st violin concerto or in many of Ravel's piano pieces add greatly to the delicacy of the piece. Glaring, prolonged dissonance from the brass section, on the other hand, has always irritated me. If you want to make your serious piece of classical music sound like the background music from a 60's scifi movie, go right ahead... :lol:

Sometimes I wonder if, given the always-increasing amount of attention given to dissonance, there will ever come a composer who will be widely considered to be the equal of Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven.

[Piano]

As a rule, I find extreme dissonance hard to swallow, though I remember listening to a dissonant string quartet by Shostakovich and it was absolutely wonderful.

[Black Mamba]

Could someone please tell me if this (http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=8EFCA7AE5E38EF18) is an example dissonance. I'm not really sure what it is.

[Rain]

Could someone please tell me if this (http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=8EFCA7AE5E38EF18) is an example dissonance. I'm not really sure what it is.

Nope, thats jazz! :) Very pretty. Who is that?

[Black Mamba]

Nope, thats jazz! :) Very pretty. Who is that?

Its "'ß'' 4 - Variation (Variation)" from the "Piano Pieces SF2 ~ Rhapsody on a Theme of SaGa Frontier II". Its by Michiko Minakata. Thanks to Totz for showing it to me!! PM me if you would like the full mp3.

So what exactly is dissonance?

[NanoSuke'62]

This is. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/clipserve/B000002S5H001002/0/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_002/103-5024785-3042200) Or for something maybe a tad more accessible, this. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/clipserve/B000001502001017/0/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_017/103-5024785-3042200)

As a rule, I find extreme dissonance hard to swallow, though I remember listening to a dissonant string quartet by Shostakovich and it was absolutely wonderful.

The Shosty String Quartet cycle is an amazing body of work. Do you remember by any chance which quartet it was?

[TheShroud13]

Nope, thats jazz! :) Very pretty. Who is that?

Are you kidding? Jazz or not, there's definitely a pretty decent dose of dissonance in there especially on some of the right hand chords. Nothing extreme, but dissonance none the less.

[Rain]

Are you kidding? Jazz or not, there's definitely a pretty decent dose of dissonance in there especially on some of the right hand chords. Nothing extreme, but dissonance none the less.

The first few notes (the first 3 seconds of the song) contain a few isolated cluster chords but the rest of the piece is fairly straight forward. There is functional dissonance but the main gist of the piece is very consonant.

[TheShroud13]

I'm not saying it's wildly dissonant, but there's definitely dissonance in there.

functional dissonance

I dunno why there needs to be a distinction. Dissonance is dissonance. Whether it's abrasive or smooth is dependent on treatment, but it doesn't change that it is dissonance. I've always found it funny how a lot of smooth jazz is much more dissonant than say hard rock but sounds so much more relaxed just because of the way it does dissonance.

[Rain]

Its "'ß'' 4 - Variation (Variation)" from the "Piano Pieces SF2 ~ Rhapsody on a Theme of SaGa Frontier II". Its by Michiko Minakata. Thanks to Totz for showing it to me!! PM me if you would like the full mp3.

So what exactly is dissonance?

Fantastic! I will definitely do that.

What is dissonance? Well I am not sure I can define that concept so easily in words...and it is likely that might prove fruitless anyways b/c oftentimes (and when one's musical mind/ear continues to stretch and change) dissonance tends to retain a different meaning in the ear and mind of the listener or composer. So I will instead let you just listen to what I consider a prototype mold to the idea of dissonance...

http://www.allacrost.org/staff/user/rain/Webern.mp3

This is pretty extreme in the area of dissonance. The piece also flirts with a-tonality and bi-tonality as well. The artist is Anton Webern who served as a classical music luminary to the likes of Stravinsky and Frank Zappa.

[Rain]

This is. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/clipserve/B000002S5H001002/0/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_002/103-5024785-3042200) Or for something maybe a tad more accessible, this. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/clipserve/B000001502001017/0/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_017/103-5024785-3042200)



Would that happen to be the Penderecki: Threnody? :)

The Shosty String Quartet cycle is an amazing body of work. Do you remember by any chance which quartet it was?

Probably 5 or 8. Those were definitely among the most jarring...

[NanoSuke'62]

The first is, indeed, the Threnody. The second is the murder scene from Psycho, interestingly enough influenced by Bartok.

As for Shosty SQs, I'd put 5 above 8 for outright earbleeding dissonance. I still need to finish listening to the cycle actually, not quite there.

[insertnamehere]

I think i understand what dissonance is i tend to like dissonance in all kinds of dosage exept something like the threnody so then for sure the improv i posted by czffra earlier has alot of dissonance.

[Black Mamba]

I thank you NanoSuke'62, but I couldn't seem to open the .exe file :(

Thanks for the mp3 Rain, I now have a general idea of what dissonance is, and I can now say that I can enjoy it ocassionaly (but not always in that extreme way). I think a dissonance piece with a steady rythm or beat would be enjoyable.

Could I consider one of my composition dissonance? Or is it just bad ;_;

(don't ask me about the long silence at the end, ask finale)

[NanoSuke'62]

What? Those weren't supposed to be .exe files... they're supposed to be samples from Amazon, for Windows Media Player. Hmm, very peculiar. *scratches chin thoughtfully*

As for your piece, there's some definite dissonance in there. Though it's pretty tasteful and not overly obnoxious.

[Biffleguzz]

What? Those weren't supposed to be .exe files... they're supposed to be samples from Amazon, for Windows Media Player. Hmm, very peculiar. *scratches chin thoughtfully*
If they were widely used media file formats, you could make off with lots of high-quality performances (just sixty seconds of them, of course). For cds with plenty of short tracks, like this (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/samples/B00006FI7C/ref=dp_tracks_all_1/103-1816374-0203053?ie=UTF8#disc_1), you could save a significant portion of the recording to an iPod or whatever.

[Andrew]

Extreme dissonance is what makes the consonant music seem sweeter. This is how I feel when composing. When listening, though, one can throw a single cluster chord at me a hundred times, and I will enjoy it. Since minimalism fascinates me, the presence of dissonance, even with long duration, is a wonderfully musical idea.

[Stryfe]

I say something far too often in band; Last year's marching band program -- Jan Van der Roost's Stonehenge -- was described in the word "grandiose."

This year's program -- Francis Macbeth's Of Sailors and Whales -- is best described by the word "chaos."

This is mostly inspired by the last movement, the first two minutes of which are mostly disconnected, sour-sounding melodies played separately at random places. And I really like it. It sounds ugly, but it sounds ugly beautifully. I don't know. You might understand if you heard it. In other pieces, while I don't have much experience, I've generally liked it when I ran into it. As long as it doesn't go on for too -crazy- long before it resolves. And if it doesn't resolve, that bothers me too.

Edit: To see what I mean, here's a midi (http://www.savefile.com/files/9500118) of the fourth movement. Except, it's actually not a midi. It's an MP3, converted from a midi. The percussion director put the midi on a CD, burned it as a .cda, and I had to convert it to mp3. So it's going to be a bit bigger than it should be. Ah well.

Anyhow, is that dissonance? (even if it's not quite extreme) >_> It's a midi of the wind section of the piece, the timpani part you hear is just a filler for where the drumline should play (someone else arranged the percussion), and there's no pit whatsoever. Hmph.

[Kabukibear]

I only like chaos with a purpose myself. If you're going to tear my ears to shreds using ultima dissonance then at least find it in your heart to spare an HP potion at the big finish. Joking aside, I tend to like dissonance when it is used for a purpose, not just for it's own sake. There's a careful line to walk balancing the pleasurable and unpleasurable harmonies. Beat me up all you want but at least give me a lollipop and a kiss here and there before you smack me around some more (Though, I'm sure at times our masochistic sides might show and we find a piece we LIKE to be completely dominated and abused by.) Does that makes sense to anyone?

[lightwarmth]

... Oh boy.

In all honesty, the more the better. I am strangely attracted to dissonance in every form. Be it the crazed (and logical) dissonance of Messiaen, the beautiful and spiritual dissonance of Whitacre, or the downright random and violent dissonance of "chance" music... I mostly like it. That's not to say that I like every dissonant piece out there... but man, when a choir/orchestra is blasting a highly dissonant chord my heart flutters.

I like consonance too... just ... it's not always as interesting.

[Chris]

Not always as interesting? I agree that pretty-pretty rococo music can be a drag to consider sometimes, but I tend to find most consonant music more intrinsically interesting, just not as outwardly extravagant on a timbral level, in many cases. I often find 'chance' music to be interesting on a superficial level, but loses all meaning after a while, but I guess what's 'interesting' differs from one person to another.

[lightwarmth]

Yeah. Chance music is really a whole other bag. Chance music is indeed superficially interesting, but not really interesting beyond the theoretical speculation and initial listen through.

Now, listen to ligeti's requiem and ... that's interesting dissonance. To me, consonance is something that doesn't intrinsically grab me as such (though, certain pieces do) , and then learn to LOVE later upon listening again. Dissonance is just one of the factors that really grabs my attention, and most often upon repeated listenings I just like it more (if it's tasteful and intellilgent).

As with everything, there are many, many exceptions - so many that one would almost consider giving up generalising ;)

[jampot]

I was intrigued by the word "Extreme" in the title of this thread, and wanted to mention Ligeti - hence I am most pleased someone has just mentioned him!

That is extreme dissonance. One of Ligeti's works starts with a gigantic spread chord (every note over 5 octaves) being played by the orchestra, but very quietly. It's one of the most spinetingling and magical effects the orchestra can create, and I love it.

It's actually a preoccupation of Ligeti's, and his obsession with an idea of 'micropolyphony'. It can be heard in pieces such as Volumina (which begins with the organ off, the player spreading his arms over the keys, then turning it on...)

Excellent topic, once I've read everyone I'll post more!

[Pandemonium]

That is extreme dissonance. One of Ligeti's works starts with a gigantic spread chord (every note over 5 octaves) being played by the orchestra, but very quietly. It's one of the most spinetingling and magical effects the orchestra can create, and I love it.

Wow, never heard of him. I better look Ligeti up then.

[Ovelia]

1) I love the way Impressionists like Debussy, Ravel and most recently, Hamauzu deal with dissonant chords. They make dissonance sound so beautiful. :p Oh, and Jazz artists too.

2) Some 'uglier' dissonance like Shostakovich, Bartok and Stravinsky strikes me and makes me think. Their work may well be my ideal example for dissonance.

3) I don't like the idea of 12-tone music when it's adapted into a whole piece. Occasional use (like Shostakovich's late string quartets and symphonies) is fine, though. Of the Second Vienna School, I like Berg most of the three, mostly because I love his three pieces of orchestra (Mahler 6th ftw <3), although it's not a 12-tone work. Webern is fine too. I'm not really digging into Schoenberg's music.

4) The same can be applied to aleatory music. The first aleatory piece I heard was Don Davis's 'Unable to Speak' in the Matrix score, and it's VERY fascinating, but mostly because it's short. Longer pieces may seem hard to follow and digest; I have a box set of Lutoslawski's orchestral works, but what I enjoyed most was his shorter pieces. A schoolmate of mine even said he likes Lutoslawski because he think Luto's music is the ugliest he've heard, even uglier than Schoenberg. :p :p

5) The eye-opener in my road to extreme dissonance is Elliot Goldenthal, and even now his work is no less fascinating to me. I still think Alien 3 was the best soundtrack in that decade.

In sum... I love dissonance wholeheartedly, because I feel that dissonance is (and should be) an indispensible part of music. Writing good dissonant music is much harder than writing good harmonious music; it's much more than throwing 12 notes in random, and it requires even more meticulation.

Yeah, I love the idea of contrast between consonant and dissonant music in one piece too. I listened to Arvo Part's Cello Concerto 'Pro et Contra', it's one of his early works, and a freakin' crazy piece with nothing like his newer, more 'holy minimalistic' works, but there's something very interesting in this piece: the second movement was just a common baroque chord progression, and the end of the 3rd movement, after 5 minutes of extreme dissonance, is a bright, cathedral-like baroque coda. It's like going through a long and winded and dark tunnel, and finally you see the sun shines brightly in the sky. It's so amazing.

I agree with Shostakovich's idea here (not his exact words): dissonance is just one of the ways to express composers' ideas. If the situation calls for it, then using dissonance is fine.

edit: I <3 Ligeti too, although I've listened only a few pieces of his work. His Etudes are fantastic, and although I'm not a piano player, I can imagine the pianists having a VERY hard time playing them.

About 'quiet dissonance'... I've only heard of Boulez's orchestration of his own Notation I-IV. There's some nice pppp tutti in it. ^_^ Actually I can't stand those pieces as piano music; but when it comes to orchestration (and GREAT orchestration by Boulez) it's fine with me. :(

but man, when a choir/orchestra is blasting a highly dissonant chord my heart flutters.

You're not the only one, lightwarmth. :p

[TheShroud13]

Writing good dissonant music is much harder than writing good harmonious music; it's much more than throwing 12 notes in random, and it requires even more meticulation.

Middle part, I agree with entirely. Last part, I agree with in part. Opening parts, not at all. The few pieces I've written that have used a significant amount of dissonance have come just as easy, if not easier than those that have been mostly consonant.