Pairing 5-1: Main Theme (FFVII) vs. Legend of MANA -Title Theme- (Legend of Mana)

[Resk]

In this pairing we have “Main Theme” from Final Fantasy VII and “Legend of MANA -Title Theme-” from Legend of Mana.

Please listen to the two tracks above, by clicking on the link for those who are new to the competition, and vote for the one you prefer. Make sure to post a comment about the track you prefer as well. In the event of a tie, the track with the most support will advance to the next round. If you have any questions about this contest, please see here. For those interested, all 32 nominations in this bracket can be downloaded here.

May the best theme win.

[Muzza]

"Legend of MANA" for me. I can't believe "Main Theme" is still here. :(

[TheShroud13]

"Main Theme" is overblown, but as the contest moves on, I'm seeing less and less what the appeal of "Legend of MANA -Title Theme-" is. I mean, it's pretty, but it doesn't strike me as anything amazing. Probably more a Shimomura-Shroud disconnect than anything else I suppose.

[Dark Cloud]

I am surprised Main Theme is still here, but it's better than the MANA theme, so it gets my vote.

[weabblewill]

Legend of Mana for me, it's about time Main Theme FVII got knocked off with it's unpleasing sound quality. Legend of Mana on the other hand doesn't have this problem, nothing particularly flashy, but strong in melody.

Vote: Legend of Mana

[Andy the Drew]

I'm going to go with Legend of Mana, of the two it's the better track. So I shall support it.

[Jared]

Um, I am totally feeling "Main Theme" here. It has substance, something that "MANA" sorely lacks.

[The Double Life Of Daniel]

Both are classics to me, but main theme is more of an "obligatory classic" while MANA is a personal favorite, so I shall support it... but none of them should win this contest.

[Josh_Barron]

Just to tie this vote, I'm going with Main Theme. I enjoy both and either way this pairing turns out nicely :).

[Pandemonium]

I think Legend of Mana has had an easy ride in this bracket but it is a great piece and although Main Theme is great I don't think I could live with myself if I caused 4 FF tracks to advance to the final 8, I don't feel Main Theme is as deserving as the others somehow. Anyway Legend of Mana is my nomination and I enjoy it slightly more even if it is perhaps from a more superficial enjoyment persepctive than a musical one.

Vote: MANA

[Hengun]

Main Theme. I won't give up that one!! =D

[Esperbelle]

I’m going to support Legent of Mana –Title Theme- here. I’m glad Main Theme got this far, but even though I nominated it, I don’t think its quite strong enough to win this contest. It’s just one of many Uematsu themes that I love, but it's really not his best. Well, if it was the orchestrated version I'd vote for it in a heartbeat, but that’s besides the point.

[TheShroud13]

What is with everyone's massive love of the orchestrated version of "Main Theme"? It's not really all that different outside the fact that it's actually performed. Where's the imagination people?!

[Esperbelle]

Actually there is a part of the orchestration that has always really impressed me, I dont' know exactly what time during the track it comes in, but its around the middle. I love when the strings come in at that part and it adds something to the harmony that I just adore everytime I hear it, its just bursting with excitement. Sorry I can't be more specific.

[Rain]

'Legend of Mana' is both better orchestrated than FFVII and more inspired musically. I appreciate it far more as a piece of music that the FFVII theme.

Legend of Mana

What is with everyone's massive love of the orchestrated version of "Main Theme"? It's not really all that different outside the fact that it's actually performed.

This might sound a bit too straight-forward, but a well orchestrated song is far more interesting, intricate and realized than a song which is orchestrated poorly.

[TheShroud13]

This might sound a bit too straight-forward, but a well orchestrated song is far more interesting, intricate and realized than a song which is orchestrated poorly.

Yeah, but the PSX version is just about as well orchestrated, it just doesn't have any live instruments. Whatever.

[Rain]

I don't agree that they are orchestrated the same. I don't believe that either the instrumentation and the quality of orchestration is the same either. The opening woodwind synth on the original version sounds tinny and hollow and it just doesn't speak to me as well as a real instrument. Not only the fact about the live instrumentation, but the capability for changes in dynamics and expression that a live instrument affords. That is why this becomes a question of orchestration for me.

There are many instances where a real instrument doesn't necessarily make a piece of music 'sing' more effectively, but I find this was the case for this piece. (Then again, I don't like a lot of the synth programming for FFVII)

But like you said, whatever.

[Don]

I shall be voting for "Legend of Mana." I think "Main Theme" is good, but it's not fantastic. "Legend of Mana" on the other hand keeps my interest much more steadily.

[TheShroud13]

I don't agree that they are orchestrated the same. I don't believe that either the instrumentation and the quality of orchestration is the same either. The opening woodwind synth on the original version sounds tinny and hollow and it just doesn't speak to me as well as a real instrument. Not only the fact about the live instrumentation, but the capability for changes in dynamics and expression that a live instrument affords. That is why this becomes a question of orchestration for me.

This is where imagination comes into play. That's not a question of orchestration, that's a question of a bad samples. If Uematsu's opening of the piece had been played on the instruments equivalent to the ones he used on the PSX, it would have sounded fantastic. In fact, that's almost exactly what happens in the orchestration. It's not Uematsu's fault that the game's samples are limited to one articulation, two dynamic levels, and are totally without any sense of colour.

Compositionally, this version of the piece is almost identical to the Reunion version. Hamaguchi moves the melody to a few more instruments than the PSX version, and adds a few subtleties that having a full orchestra at his disposal allows. These are generally improvements, but nothing that really changes what the piece is doing. The PSX version of the "Main Theme" is still remarkably dynamic for a video game composition and features every bit of the dramatic shape that Hamaguchi infuses into the orchestration. The live performance simply brings out all of the orchestration that was written into the piece, yearning to be expressed.

To me, arguing that the orchestration of "Main Theme" is better orchestrated than its PSX counterpart is like arguing that a performance of Beethoven's 9th is better orchestrated than the score itself because you can actually hear the effect. Nein. The good orchestration is already in the score. Imagination can fill some of the space in though. If we were talking "Aerith's Theme" vs. its orchestration, I would see the argument, but "Main Theme"?

I love when the strings come in at that part and it adds something to the harmony that I just adore everytime I hear it, its just bursting with excitement.

I think I know the part you're talking about. At 3:18ish? Heh, I don't really like that addition very much myself, kinda cheesy imo. It definitely adds some motion to the piece though! Never could have worked on the PSX though, the strings just don't speak quickly enough.

[Rain]

This is where imagination comes into play. That's not a question of orchestration, that's a question of a bad samples. If Uematsu's opening of the piece had been played on the instruments equivalent to the ones he used on the PSX, it would have sounded fantastic. In fact, that's almost exactly what happens in the orchestration.

Of course it's a question of samples. However, it's not ONLY about samples just as it's not only about orchestration. It's not one OR the other in this situation.
Orchestration accounts for a fairly large reason why the more current arrangement is more effectual in stating the main idea and fleshing out and enhancing the theme's sense of sonority. The collection of instruments is broader, there is more variation from each sectional scheme and it is stated with greater subtlety and poise which makes the music inherently more colorful.
The way the instruments are used is also important and the current version of the theme elaborates in places where the original simply doesn't. Not that it 'cannot' in the original, but then again the means for expression and ornamentation is always reliant upon the instruments used. That is a rather fundamental aspect of orchestration to begin with.

A synth cannot be 'orchestrated' in the same way that a full orchestra can. Instrumentation choices, the way they are voiced and again how they express themselves also accounts for a concept of orchestration.

In this case, I don't care much for the argument that imagination is required to form a basis for comparison. Imagination means many different things to different people. I am saying there is a notable difference in quality between the 2 versions in terms of how the music is stated. How the music is stated instrumentally is largely a part of orchestration.

While Nobuo's mission may initially have been to create the orchestral version all along, why should the listener be asked to 'have imagination' to account for differences between how the two are stated? Most listeners have a more immediate desire to hear a piece to its fullest and the orchestrated version is much more descriptive and illustrative.
That is to say, the original version simply doesn't state itself with the scale, grandeur and decisiveness that the orchestral version does.

It's not Uematsu's fault that the game's samples are limited to one articulation, two dynamic levels, and are totally without any sense of colour.

One of the beautiful things about the orchestral version is that it doesn't leave the listener with any "what ifs" but gives them the whole show up front, without compromise. There are more peaks and valleys to experience on account of not only what instruments are used, but HOW they are used and what colors they provide and how they enhance the original.

The argument that the samples are 'bad' is as subjective a statement to make that imagination is required in order to fully enjoy a piece that utilizes inferior samples AND inferior orchestral combinations. The soundtrack version isn't inferior musically, but I never made that point to begin with.

The live performance simply brings out all of the orchestration that was written into the piece, yearning to be expressed.

That is precisely my point. The fully orchestrated version does better with allowing the idea to reach its highest point. The full orchestrations allow the piece to become more realized. The music may not be changed much between both versions but WHAT a piece says is just as important is HOW it is said.

[TheShroud13]

Of course it's a question of samples. However, it's not ONLY about samples just as it's not only about orchestration. It's not one OR the other in this situation.

I never meant to imply that.

Orchestration accounts for a fairly large reason why the more current arrangement is more effectual in stating the main idea and fleshing out and enhancing the theme's sense of sonority. The collection of instruments is broader, there is more variation from each sectional scheme and it is stated with greater subtlety and poise which makes the music inherently more colorful.

I agree that the orchestrated version is a bit more colourful, occasionally more subtle (though often less subtle as well), and yes, within each section Hamaguchi does move the melody around more than Uematsu does (which I think has something to do with the PSX), and he adds more background parts than Uematsu did (again, I think the PSX has something to do with this). Still, the grand scheme is very similar, and Hamaguchi's gestures are very similar to Uematsu's.

Uematsu Main Theme
-Strings get main theme, reeds & low strings get response
-Plain string melody
-Add flute
-B section, reed ostinato, string chords, piano melody, countermelody tossed between winds
-Brass enters at end with chords
-Big expansion into repeat of main theme with brass and percussion
-Key change, melody in the brass, big string sound
-Transition into harp & underwatery sound
-Harp with piano, some brass, some strings
-Crescendo back into transition back to main theme with trumpets leading the way
-Once sound mellows out, winds take charge again, and we reach the loop point

Hamaguchi Main Theme
-Main theme moves around, as do the response sections
-Plain string melody (adds counter-ideas sooner, string chords are decorated with moving parts)
-Add flute (pizz strings)
-B section, harp ostinato, string chords glockenspiel & flute melody (gets into strings), countermelody tossed around
-Thickening of the strings instead of brass entrance
-Main theme in cellos, pizz strings & fluttering winds replace percussion, brass enters at end
-Key change, melody in the brass, really cheesy string twiddles
-Transition into harp & underwatery sound
-Harp with piano, some winds, some strings, some brass slowly enters
-Crescendo back into transition back to main theme with trumpets leading the way
-Once sound mellows out, winds take charge again, and we reach the coda
-Very simple treatment of the theme gives us rest and closure

The way the instruments are used is also important and the current version of the theme elaborates in places where the original simply doesn't. Not that it 'cannot' in the original, but then again the means for expression and ornamentation is always reliant upon the instruments used. That is a rather fundamental aspect of orchestration to begin with.

Where do these elaborations happen? Aside from the totally new coda, a few places where there are more throwaway moving parts in the orchestrated version than the original, and the moment where Hamaguchi gives the cellos the melody (which, while I always love melody in the cellos, I thought that section was a really bad choice, but that's besides the point), I don't really see an awful lot of elaboration on the original. There's certainly stuff there, but I don't really see them as anything that would lead me to say that the orchestration is a significant improvement on the original. I mean, obviously if we're going to include pure expressiveness and depth of sound, it's all over the place, but for the most part the textures are very similar to (if not identical to) the original. Basically, what I'm getting at is while I see the orchestration as an improvement on the original, I think if you took the exact score from the PSX and gave it to an orchestra, you'd still have something pretty darned good. (I realize you have a response to this, but I'll get to that)

Also, I'm pretty sure there are elaborations in the orchestration that would not have worked on the PSX. A lot of the moving parts would be distracting on the PSX because so many of the samples move so slowly, it's more difficult to move the melodic line between parts because each instrument has such a peculiar articulation, and it's also more difficult to make effective sound combinations on the PSX because the samples don't blend as well (I'm speaking from MIDI experience here * sigh *) so I disagree with your sense that these elaborations 'cannot' be in the original. Again, I realize that you'll respond by saying that Uematsu could elaborate in a different way, but I'll get back to that. On a similar note, I'm very well aware that the means of expression are dependent on the instruments used, I'm not an idiot. :p

A synth cannot be 'orchestrated' in the same way that a full orchestra can. Instrumentation choices, the way they are voiced and again how they express themselves also accounts for a concept of orchestration.

I don't disagree with this. But at the same time, Uematsu clearly wanted to evoke the orchestra in this piece. His choices were meant more to imply the sense of orchestra than to make the best 'synthy' piece that he could make. Maybe it's not the best choice, but I certainly think that Uematsu did a really good job of invoking the orchestra considering what he had to work with.

In this case, I don't care much for the argument that imagination is required to form a basis for comparison. Imagination means many different things to different people. I am saying there is a notable difference in quality between the 2 versions in terms of how the music is stated. How the music is stated instrumentally is largely a part of orchestration.

While Nobuo's mission may initially have been to create the orchestral version all along, why should the listener be asked to 'have imagination' to account for differences between how the two are stated? Most listeners have a more immediate desire to hear a piece to its fullest and the orchestrated version is much more descriptive and illustrative.
That is to say, the original version simply doesn't state itself with the scale, grandeur and decisiveness that the orchestral version does.

My argument for imagination is not that I think people should imagine the orchestrated version of "Main Theme" every time they listen to the PSX version of "Main Theme", but they should be more imaginative in their listening to the PSX "Main Theme". Even though the sound is thinner than an orchestra would be, many of the elements of a rich sound are in the writing. Even though the trumpet sample has less than half of the majesty that a real trumpet would, we can imagine what a real trumpet might sound like it its place. Even though the crash cymbal at the big climactic key change lasts for a half of a second and is considerably less massive a sound than a real cymbal, a listener ought to be able to imagine that sound echoing throughout a performance hall.

I don't generally like making excuses for sound quality, and I agree that it's generally a better decision to make the best piece you can with the samples you have rather than trying to stretch your samples to imitate a style that they really can't capture the full scope of. But for what Final Fantasy VII was (I recently replayed it, and it's a lot better than I remember), or at the very least what it was trying to be, I think Uematsu would have been making a huge mistake to not make something like this theme. And even considering the limitations, this piece is more dynamic than 95% of the VGM of the time. Say what you will about the orchestration, but I feel a lot of change throughout the piece. Maybe that's my imagination, but I certainly think there's a lot of change there.

One more bit in defense of imagination, this is Final Fantasy for god's sake. If we aren't going to be imaginative, we might as well not even play the games. I'm not going to lie, the fire in FFIV, it looks about as much like fire as the flutes in FFVII sound like flutes in real life. There's a resemblance, but if you don't want to enjoy the experience, there's nothing stopping you from saying, "That really isn't detailed enough for me to really fear it as I would fire."

One of the beautiful things about the orchestral version is that it doesn't leave the listener with any "what ifs" but gives them the whole show up front, without compromise. There are more peaks and valleys to experience on account of not only what instruments are used, but HOW they are used and what colors they provide and how they enhance the original.

I disagree very much that there are more peaks and valleys in the orchestrated version than the Uematsu version. I agree that the peaks and valleys are more defined, but I think that is primarily an issue of performance not of orchestration.

The argument that the samples are 'bad' is as subjective a statement to make that imagination is required in order to fully enjoy a piece that utilizes inferior samples AND inferior orchestral combinations. The soundtrack version isn't inferior musically, but I never made that point to begin with.

Whoah, 'bad' is your word not mine. And yes, what I say about the samples (and everything else here) is subjective. You don't need to tell me that, I'm plenty aware. But you're saying subjective things with just as much authority as I am (inferior orchestral combinations? sounds subjective to me). I don't mind it, as I enjoy these sorts of conversations, but I don't think it's fair to discredit my statements because they are subjective and then just march on with yours as if they're gospel.

That is precisely my point. The fully orchestrated version does better with allowing the idea to reach its highest point. The full orchestrations allow the piece to become more realized. The music may not be changed much between both versions but WHAT a piece says is just as important is HOW it is said.

I don't disagree that the orchestrated version is better, but I just don't think it's as dramatic a difference as most people are making it out to be. Maybe that's because I weigh composition more than most do and weigh performance less, maybe it's because I'm deaf, who knows. In any case that's my story.

[weabblewill]

I wonder how "Edda Departure" would have fared against "Main Theme". Both pieces if matched together would have been great a round. :(

[Queen_Garnet]

My vote goes for "Legend of MANA" because I find it more enjoyable than "Main Theme".

[Pandemonium]

-Key change, melody in the brass, really cheesy string twiddles

Oh god, that bit makes me want to hurt myself to drown the pain of horrific use of violins. The rest of it is a nice and faithful orchestration which granted doesn't have much imagination but is nice to listen to. However I can't listen to it just because of that few seconds, why Hamaguchi, why did you do that?

[Rain]

and yes, within each section Hamaguchi does move the melody around more than Uematsu does (which I think has something to do with the PSX), and he adds more background parts than Uematsu did (again, I think the PSX has something to do with this). Still, the grand scheme is very similar, and Hamaguchi's gestures are very similar to Uematsu's.

The overall schemes can be similar without being the same. You already agree that the orchestral version is more impactual so what is the need to drag this out any further?

Uematsu Main Theme
-Strings get main theme, reeds & low strings get response
-Plain string melody
-Add flute
-B section, reed ostinato, string chords, piano melody, countermelody tossed between winds
-Brass enters at end with chords
-Big expansion into repeat of main theme with brass and percussion
-Key change, melody in the brass, big string sound
-Transition into harp & underwatery sound
-Harp with piano, some brass, some strings
-Crescendo back into transition back to main theme with trumpets leading the way
-Once sound mellows out, winds take charge again, and we reach the loop point

Hamaguchi Main Theme
-Main theme moves around, as do the response sections
-Plain string melody (adds counter-ideas sooner, string chords are decorated with moving parts)
-Add flute (pizz strings)
-B section, harp ostinato, string chords glockenspiel & flute melody (gets into strings), countermelody tossed around
-Thickening of the strings instead of brass entrance
-Main theme in cellos, pizz strings & fluttering winds replace percussion, brass enters at end
-Key change, melody in the brass, {really cheesy string twiddles} Yes I agree!
-Transition into harp & underwatery sound
-Harp with piano, some winds, some strings, some brass slowly enters
-Crescendo back into transition back to main theme with trumpets leading the way
-Once sound mellows out, winds take charge again, and we reach the coda
-Very simple treatment of the theme gives us rest and closure

I'd like to point out that the music is primarily Uematsu's. He should be given credit for both versions as he wrote the main idea behind the material. However, Hamaguchi obviously has a better understanding of the way the orchestra works. I am not sure how much Uematsu worked with him to get the orchestral version but Hamaguchi brings the instruments out in a way which both honors the original musical ideas of a musical ideas while heightening the sense of scale.
I've taken the easy way out and bolded a few reasons why the orchestral version might be conceivably 'better' than the original. These obviously aren't the ONLY reasons the orchestral version might be considered more striking or elaborate, but that goes without saying.

I'd get more in-depth with specific instances if I had a few hours to spare with thoughts on this discussion but I must forego that in lieu of studying for finals. ;P

Where do these elaborations happen? Aside from the totally new coda, a few places where there are more throwaway moving parts in the orchestrated version than the original, and the moment where Hamaguchi gives the cellos the melody (which, while I always love melody in the cellos, I thought that section was a really bad choice, but that's besides the point), I don't really see an awful lot of elaboration on the original.

There isn't a lot of elaboration on the original but it wasn't needed. An improvement can be made without being too blatant. The music was good in the original and was elaborated on in the orchestral version in aspects such as brass and string swells, overlays, trills (thrills and skills!) and featured the more diverse instrumentation of the two; more instruments being used together to greater effect. There are parts, as you've pointed out, where the instrumental schemes between the 2 are similar but the main idea I am getting at is that live instrumentation necessitated a greater understanding of dynamics and expression and Hamaguchi rose to the challenge for providing orchestration which improved the fluidity of the musical ideas and brought each section of the orchestra out far better.
The instruments just work better and more fluidly in the orchestral version, more seamlessly, if you will. There is more of a sense of instrumental symbiosis.

I am afraid this discussion is all subjective unless we have scores to pour over.

(We are going to go on forever, aren't we?)

There's certainly stuff there, but I don't really see them as anything that would lead me to say that the orchestration is a significant improvement on the original.

Define "stuff". :D No, but I do know what you are getting at. I think many feel more rewarded by the orchestral version, partially because of the new instruments and partially because of the new orchestrations which added a sense of polish where it was once sparse, as in the original.

Basically, what I'm getting at is while I see the orchestration as an improvement on the original,

I agree.

I think if you took the exact score from the PSX and gave it to an orchestra, you'd still have something pretty darned good.

That could be true but there is no way to prove that really. I mean, it's the same to say that the mario melody could be taken from midi, thrown together with a few instruments and would sound good without dynamic expressions, and that might be true. However, it's so often a case where good programming often makes up for bad orchestration in many pieces of video game music that I can't just assume that is the standard.

We need scores to truly look at this objectively... which is no fun, to say the least!

Also, I'm pretty sure there are elaborations in the orchestration that would not have worked on the PSX.

Right.

A lot of the moving parts would be distracting on the PSX because so many of the samples move so slowly, it's more difficult to move the melodic line between parts because each instrument has such a peculiar articulation, and it's also more difficult to make effective sound combinations on the PSX because the samples don't blend as well (I'm speaking from MIDI experience here * sigh *)

You'd be surprised at what midi can do. :) I work with midi almost everyday. It's not as difficult as you would think. Automation is really where midi can either shine or NOT. I believe that Nobuo didn't really use much automation for his samples, which definitely didn't make the original as expressive as it could've been. In the end, Nobuo did a good job with melody but didn't do the best with samples choices and utilizing them.

Hamaguchi's version of Uematsu's theme brought everything out and made for a more compelling work.

so I disagree with your sense that these elaborations 'cannot' be in the original.

I only mention this in the sense that original DOES NOT include the same quality. Utilizing real instruments, as I mentioned, necessitates a different way of speaking, in this case involving a sense of the way instruments work with one another in a live acoustical format.

Again, I realize that you'll respond by saying that Uematsu could elaborate in a different way, but I'll get back to that. On a similar note, I'm very well aware that the means of expression are dependent on the instruments used

No, I am saying he SHOULD'VE elaborated more clearly and with greater decisiveness in regards to the sample choices he determined to be most effective. To leave this factor out of the equation in regards to the whole concept of orchestration technique is to only include one side of the coin.

I'm not an idiot. :p

I hope I didn't imply this. :o

I don't disagree with this. But at the same time, Uematsu clearly wanted to evoke the orchestra in this piece.

Yes but we can't always get what we want. What is clear to you isn't always clear to everyone else. As I mention, again, people have a more immediate need to be pleased with timbres and subtlety and the orchestral version gives them that.

His choices were meant more to imply the sense of orchestra than to make the best 'synthy' piece that he could make.

Seriously, how do you determine what Nobuo did and didn't want to do with the piece? Given that most of the FFVII soundtrack is synthy, I'd be more given to the idea that perhaps Uematsu wanted people to express that side of the music more than the orchestral side.

The incredible musicality of Uematsu is always there. However, his music is also very open to good orchestrations because of the clear and concise simplicity of his melodic writing. He is not particularly known for his orchestral prowess.

Maybe it's not the best choice, but I certainly think that Uematsu did a really good job of invoking the orchestra considering what he had to work with.

Yes, but that isn't the argument here. The argument is which version displays the musical ideas BETTER.

My argument for imagination is not that I think people should imagine the orchestrated version of "Main Theme" every time they listen to the PSX version of "Main Theme", but they should be more imaginative in their listening to the PSX "Main Theme".

Before you go saying who does and doesn't have imagination, the Final Fantasy VI soundtrack is my favorite soundtrack of all time. The samples aren't good but they are utilized in creative ways with panning and delays to make the music move better. I cannot say the same for FFVII. I believe the sound programming in FFVI is essentially much better than that of Final Fantasy VII. I would go so far as to say that I favor the FFVII OSV to the orchestral version, in that case.

Even though the sound is thinner than an orchestra would be, many of the elements of a rich sound are in the writing.

Yes, this has been my point all along. What is the end result, though?

Even though the trumpet sample has less than half of the majesty that a real trumpet would, we can imagine what a real trumpet might sound like it its place.

But the way an instrument needs to be played in order to played effectively also requires an understanding of the way each instrument in the orchestra works. Midi and sampling software (synths whathaveyou) doesn't require a great understanding of the way an orchestra works, just basic stuff. Nobuo has always been a master of the note, which is really where music matters most in the end.

Even though the crash cymbal at the big climactic key change lasts for a half of a second and is considerably less massive a sound than a real cymbal, a listener ought to be able to imagine that sound echoing throughout a performance hall.

I understand. Again, people have a more immediate need to be rewarded and in the case of FFVII, Hamaguchi delivers the idea a little better via instrumentation and orchestration.

I don't generally like making excuses for sound quality, and I agree that it's generally a better decision to make the best piece you can with the samples you have rather than trying to stretch your samples to imitate a style that they really can't capture the full scope of.

Agreed.

But for what Final Fantasy VII was (I recently replayed it, and it's a lot better than I remember), or at the very least what it was trying to be, I think Uematsu would have been making a huge mistake to not make something like this theme. And even considering the limitations, this piece is more dynamic than 95% of the VGM of the time. Say what you will about the orchestration, but I feel a lot of change throughout the piece. Maybe that's my imagination, but I certainly think there's a lot of change there.

I am often willing to love Uematsu's music as is. And I do. There are perhaps no composers in the field of VGM as diverse, endearing and musically provocative as Nobuo's career has illustrated. I just think some pieces are better suited to certain formats. It's fate... maybe.

However, again I will say that both FFVII orchestral version and sound version are Nobuo's work and he should get credit for the main ideas that shine forth in whatever format they take.

One more bit in defense of imagination, this is Final Fantasy for god's sake. If we aren't going to be imaginative, we might as well not even play the games.

I'd rather NOT have to be imaginative in regards to the music. I'd rather the music take me to a place without wondering what could have been. That way I can leave the world behind and become enriched in the moment and the wondrous glory it may hold.

I'm not going to lie, the fire in FFIV, it looks about as much like fire as the flutes in FFVII sound like flutes in real life.

But even then, the amazing sound programming of Minoru Akao accounts for severe disabilities in timbre with exceptional choices in the way the sound works. (panning and delay and EQ are AMAZING) That guy is amazing.

I disagree very much that there are more peaks and valleys in the orchestrated version than the Uematsu version. I agree that the peaks and valleys are more defined

Well that's what I mean. There is more clarification. It's easier to see where the peaks end and the valleys begin.

but I think that is primarily an issue of performance not of orchestration.

I disagree.

Whoah, 'bad' is your word not mine.

Okay.

But you're saying subjective things with just as much authority as I am (inferior orchestral combinations? sounds subjective to me).

Nope, it's dogs honest truth! :doh: I didn't need to say inferior and I probably shouldn't have but I didn't really know what else to say at the time. The orchestral version takes what makes the original so good and refines it.

I don't mind it, as I enjoy these sorts of conversations, but I don't think it's fair to discredit my statements because they are subjective and then just march on with yours as if they're gospel.

I am not discrediting you as a person. We had our goes in the Guitar Hero thread and we shall have them again. We will disagree and this is quite alright.
What is fair to one person is unfair to another... like when you get angry at people who don't look at the same things in a piece of music and ask them to consider the scope of their imagination because obviously they don't have the ability to know what is good and what they like.

I don't disagree that the orchestrated version is better, but I just don't think it's as dramatic a difference as most people are making it out to be.

Fair enough.

Maybe that's because I weigh composition more than most do and weigh performance less, maybe it's because I'm deaf, who knows. In any case that's my story.

Exactly. Not everyone is willing to think about music as deeply. They may be willing to feel it as deeply but might be against finding the mechanisms for that and just enjoy it for what it is.
I feel you might've been discounting them and for that I probably got a bit too drawn up on providing counter arguments. Anyways, this was quite fun. It's always a pleasure to go over Uematsu's music... even if the orchestral version is SUPERIOR. :roll: :lol:
:thumbs:

[Scherzo]

The FFVII Main Theme does evoke oodles of nostalgia, but in terms of sitting down and listening to it, I prefer Legend of MANA. Shimomura makes good contrast between the different sections of the piece, while keeping essentially the same orchestration. It's a nice effect.